Thursday, February 19, 2009

UN, Reparations ARE NOT AN OPTION...GET OVER IT

Thursday, February 19, 2009

United Nations Wants To Force America To Pay Reparations For Slavery

First, the United Nations needs to STAY THE FUCK OUT OF OUR BUSINESS here in America. We are America, and it is time that America stops letting the United Nations, the World Trade Organization and others their attempts at dictating United States policy and politics. Reparations are NOT ON THE TABLE...END OF DISCUSSION, get over it. Maybe you can talk those that sold people into slavery to cough up some Reparations Money, or find someone still living that had slaves and SUE THEM FOR REPARATIONS. Furthermore, it is suggested here that the time has come for the United Nations to look for another home for their organization. The organization does not seem to be a real good match for New York from this writer's perspective. While we are at it, speaking on the topic of others interfering in our internal American business, President Obama and our Congress need to give serious consideration to pulling out of the WTO, and doing away with NAFTA and CAFTA. Barack's comments in Canada today are unacceptable...the man made a promise to Blue Collar Americans, and we EXPECT HIM TO KEEP IT. It's time for some home grown American Protectionist Policies. If China, Canada, Mexico and others do not like it, that is their beef, not ours. Lastly...Mexico is on the verge of Civil War....SECURE OUR BORDER with 50,000 troops...we do not need any more Illegal Aliens finding their way here from Mexico demanding suddenly political asylum.

U.S. Holds Firm on Reparations, Israel in U.N. Racism Talks

Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, February 20, 2009; Page A10

UNITED NATIONS, Feb. 19 -- The Obama administration on Thursday concluded its first round of politically charged U.N. negotiations on racism, pressing foreign governments to drop reparation demands for slavery and to desist from singling out Israel for criticism in a draft declaration to be presented at a U.N. conference in April.

The United States is exploring whether it will participate in the conference, which will review progress on a declaration from the 2001 World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance. The United States and Israel walked out of that meeting, held in Durban, South Africa.

U.N. officials have urged the Obama administration to participate in the review conference, saying that the election of the first African American president presents the United States with an opportunity to inspire other minorities around the world and to highlight U.S. progress in the years since slavery was abolished and blacks were granted civil rights.

40 comments:

James said...

Reparations are NOT ON THE TABLE...END OF DISCUSSION, get over it.

If I'm reading you right, you're saying that the U.N. needs to stop even talking about reparations for slavery, because they're "just not on the table" as far as the U.S. is concerned?

In fact, the U.S. Congress is currently considering a proposal (H.R. 40) for a commission to look into reparations for slavery and discrimination. A hearing was held on Capitol Hill in the last Congress, and presumably more are on the way.

Meanwhile, the U.S. House of Representatives voted last summer to apologize for its role in slavery and discrimination, and to commit itself to "rectifying" the lingering consequences of those events.

It sounds to me as though reparations are very much on the table here.

James said...

many millions of Americans who had nothing to do with slavery have been paying Reparations for decases...think Affirmative Action, and quite frankly, what we once willingly participated in has

I'm not quite sure why you think that affirmative action constitutes reparations for slavery.

First, affirmative action has benefited mostly people who aren't black.

Second, affirmative action clearly hasn't made a dent in the lingering harm from slavery and racial discrimination.

Slavery ended in this country over 140 years ago..it is time for ALL PARTIES to move on.

The stated purpose of reparations isn't to address historic slavery. It's to address the legacy of slavery and racial discrimination today.

I'm not a supporter of reparations, but I don't think we can simply ask people to "move on" when they can still point to the harmful effects of historic injustices.

Royce Penstinger said...

James:

Putting window dressing on a donkey does not make it a race horse, and talking about Reparations does not mean reparations are going to happen or that they should.

Now if you James as the direct downline blood relative of slave traders are feeling some PERSONAL GUILT, then I suggest you take some of your own money and make a large donation to the endowment of one of those Black Colleges you say are suffering right now as a result of the Economic Downturn more than WHITE COLLEGES.

I take exception to that...sure I could show you some multi-racial and predominantly White Colleges in rural areas of American that are suffering just as much as Black Colleges, that do not have the deep endowments of a Harvard, Princeton, Yale or other school predominantly attended by the priviledged of our society. Therein is the problem with reparations, and the Black Communities resentment of ALL Whites for slavery...Whites as in the collective whole did not enslave or own slaves...PRIVILEDGED SOCIETY owned slaves, still have slaves to this day, but with new labels of maid, servant, butler, gardener...looked at the wage base here in America lately for many of our jobs, looked at the so called Minimum Wage?

First, like it or not, many millions of Americans who had nothing to do with slavery have been paying Reparations for decases...think Affirmative Action, and quite frankly, what we once willingly participated in has grown old...enough already. The problem with Affirmative Action...it makes those that can least afford to pay it pick up the tab to LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD...you think reparations would be any different you are wrong. Just look at who (the UBER RICH) are getting bailout money from Washington, and who is not, who will have to pick up the tab for all of this for generations to come as our children's chidlren's children pay for Obama's Stimulus Folly and the Bailout of Wall Street.

You want to see UGLY, let our Congress try to seriously start handing out even more FREE MONEY for no good reason. Yes, I said no good reason. Slavery ended in this country over 140 years ago..it is time for ALL PARTIES to move on. I was sexually abused as a child...the stature of limitations means I get no redress. Obama signed a equal pay bill, but the woman that it was named after does not get her day in court. Slavery is over, and the sense of entitlement that permeates the Black Community needs to end...their community like all communities should stand or fall ALL ON THEIR OWN EFFORTS...that is America. As a side bar...blacks were not the only slaves, nor were European Whites the only slave owners.

James said...

if you James as the direct downline blood relative of slave traders are feeling some PERSONAL GUILT, then I suggest you take some of your own money and make a large donation

Thanks, Royce, but actually, I can't imagine why anyone would feel any personal guilt over the actions of others.

And I don't have any money for large donations, either.

Whites as in the collective whole did not enslave or own slaves...PRIVILEDGED SOCIETY owned slaves

Actually, a great many slaves were owned by ordinary Americans, Royce. In the North, for instance, this was the normal pattern, with most slaves being owned in middle-class households or on small, single-family farms.

More importantly, all American families prior to the Civil War benefited were connected to the slave economy. In the North, for instance, slavery was a mainstay of the colonial economy, and between the Revolution and the Civil War, slavery drove the economies of both the North and the South.

Of course, I agree with you that it would be wrong for anyone to blame whites today for slavery in the past. But I don't hear reparations advocates talking about blaming anyone.

it makes those that can least afford to pay it pick up the tab to LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD

How does affirmative action require anyone, much less those who can least afford it, to pick up a tab? And what's wrong with leveling the playing field, at least to the extent that it was tilted by actions of our nation and our society, from which we all benefit today?

their community like all communities should stand or fall ALL ON THEIR OWN EFFORTS

I agree. Which means that allowing them to stand or fall based on illegitimate actions of the past is wrong.

It's easy to trace the harm from slavery, from the freeing of slaves in 1865 to today. Blacks in this country were never given a fair opportunity to pursue the American dream.

Royce Penstinger said...

James:

I can still point to the harmful LEGACY effects of a Governmental Social System that came knocking at the door of my house when I was a child and IGNORED clear signs of abuse going on inside our home. I can still point to the farmers who are having to sell their family farms because rich and elite families who wanted to buy a weekend home out in the country started to demand suburb style SERVICES that most rural folk could not afford, services that forced up property taxes to a point where it was sell your farm that had been in the family for 100 years, or have the county take it for unpaid taxes.

We all have our crosses to bear, and no one comes around with a Federal Government Checkbook to write us out checks that will make us WHOLE for the LEGACY PAINS we have had to endure for the Red, White and FUCKING BLUE...my wife has breast cancer, I live three miles from a nuclear reactor...want to talk about LEGACY PAIN?

You want to talk LEGACY PAIN...Wall Street and the Banks have screwed a major portion of the Baby Boomers out of their early retirements, decimated our 401K's, retirements and pensions, devastated the values of our homes. Money that was there to lend to downline relatives for down payments on a home, or to buy a new car, or to survive an economic downturn wiped out...is someone going to come along and make REPARATIONS? That is a priviledge reserved for the UBER Rich...or haven't you been watching who are government is giving all that money to while tossing each of us POOR FOLK $15 a week...PRAISE JESUS.

Anywhere you want to turn there is LEGACY from past history...WHO CARES. I grew up just as poor, and for parts of my youth in the exact same neighborhoods as Black kids...we were DIRT POOR, black and white, born as they say on the WRONG SIDE OF THE TRACKS...POVERTY IS POVERTY, and POVERTY IS COLOR BLIND. You want to cure Legacy Blight, stop talking about Reparations for Slavery and instead talk about truly eliminating poverty for ALL PEOPLE OF ALL COLORS, talk about making college accessible to all Americans that graduate from high school, instead of college only being made available to those that can afford it...OH, and stop trying to ATTACH STRINGS to that college education like Obama wants to do. Start talking about a Federally Mandated LIVING WAGE...I think $12 per hour is a good point at which to start the discussion.

Royce Penstinger said...

James...if you think Blacks are the only ones that dono't have a fair chance to grasp at the proverbial Brass Ring of the American Dream, you are naive...they (and Illegal Aliens) just happen to be the loudest and most visible whiners. Start paying a living wage to every American and you can kiss the All Volunteer Army goodbye...do you know how many Americans (of ALL COLORS) enlist to get out of Poverty, enlist hoping it is their ticket to a better tomorrow? Hello of a price our government makes poor people pay for a fair chance at a future.

I am not one to be politically correct, nor one that believes in handouts. I do believe in Equal Rights, not SPECIAL RIGHTS...which is why I can oppose Affirmative Action while at the same time supporting Gay Marriage.

Easy to trace the legacy of slavery drom then to now...it is easy to trace the legacy of poverty too...your point is?

James said...

We all have our crosses to bear, and no one comes around with a Federal Government Checkbook

I think this is a reasonable objection to reparations, Royce.

I don't think it's easy, though, to sort through these issues.

For instance, slavery and discrimination represented large-scale efforts by our government and society to deliberately exploit millions of human beings, in ways which have benefited all of us to this day, and have left millions of our fellow citizens at a dramatic disadvantage.

This is, if nothing else, rather different from such flaws in our political system as the ones you point to, which result in cases of child abuse going undetected and family farms being priced out of rural communities.

I grew up just as poor, and for parts of my youth in the exact same neighborhoods as Black kids

I'm sure that's true, Royce. Hey, when I was growing up, my family had a lot less money than my black friends did.

However, on the whole, black families in this country are far behind whites, as a direct result of slavery and discrimination.

This doesn't mean we ignore other forms of injustice or disadvantage, but our society is responsible for this particular problem.

It's also true that, in addition, the black kids we grew up with had to face the considerable disadvantages that still exist in our society for those who walk around with black skin.

stop talking about Reparations for Slavery and instead talk about truly eliminating poverty for ALL PEOPLE OF ALL COLORS

Actually, that sounds a lot like how I do talk, Royce. I'm not in favor of reparations, as I mentioned, and I do believe we need to approach the problem much as you suggest -- although I also believe we need to acknowledge and consider the effects of our history on all people.

stop trying to ATTACH STRINGS to that college education like Obama wants to do

What are you referring to here, Royce? I'd like to know more.

James said...

if you think Blacks are the only ones that dono't have a fair chance to grasp at the proverbial Brass Ring of the American Dream, you are naive

I don't think that, actually.

they (and Illegal Aliens) just happen to be the loudest and most visible whiners

I'm not sure I agree with you that blacks are "whiners." Is it wrong even to point out that our country committed terrible injustices against black Americans, and never tried to correct what it had done?

As for illegal aliens, they're almost invariably among the quietest people in the nation. Can you point to many illegal aliens who are speaking up and making demands for themselves?

do you know how many Americans (of ALL COLORS) enlist to get out of Poverty

Yes, I do. And it's a significant problem, which shows just how badly our system is working.

Easy to trace the legacy of slavery drom then to now...it is easy to trace the legacy of poverty too...your point is?

My point is that our desire to combat the second legacy doesn't excuse the need to address the first legacy.

It's also true that poverty isn't a condition which, by and large, has been deliberately imposed on people. The government hasn't done enough to end the conditions which generate poverty, but it's also transferred a great deal of wealth from the rich, and merely the well-off, to those in poverty.

This isn't enough to end the problem, of course, but at least the government has been trying. It's never tried to put right the legacy of slavery, which it was, after all, directly responsible for.

Royce Penstinger said...

James:

Special Interest approaches to inequality have not and never will work. You want to end a lot of our problems, a lot of the world's problems, end POVERTY for all people, and as pointed out, poverty is color blind. Curious here...you say slavery was systematic...what is minimum wage set by our Federal Government that leaves people in poverty...what is our government refusing to deport illegal aliens in the name of keeping down wages (and benefits)?

Any one, black, white or purple that thinks slavery is gone does not have a clue...we have just figured out how to put lipstick on a pig and call it something other than Sarah Palin.

THe military for decades has held out MONEY FOR COLLEGE like a carrot in front of the noses of our poor Americans to get their signatures on a contract. Obama wants to give ALL AMEIRCANS college, but ONLY AFTER WE HAVE GIVEN TWO YEARS of service to our country...and he is not giving us FULL ACCESS TO COLLEGE, just a DISCOUNT COUPON...in short, that is not change, and that is not providing equal access to opportunity.

I'd have degrees up the butt if my Daddy could have afforded to write out a check like say George Bush's dad did...when average folks have the same access and chance at opportunity as rich folks do, then we have a TRUE DEMOCRACY...what America has now does not even come close, and I am just old enough here to be cantankerous about it.

Royce Penstinger said...

Shaking head....sorry James, but cannot believe you would say poverty is NOT deliberately caused.

When I was younger I worked for $1.65 an HOUR...minimum wage! The amount our government said some skin flint could pay me for a hard days work. Now, some 40 years later we have Americans (over five million of them) out of work because COMPANIES and OUR GOVERNMENT realized they could employ ILLEGAL ALIENS cheaper than they could EMPLOY LEGAL AMERICANS.

Tell me that is NOT DELIBERATE...bullshit, those on the lower rungs of the economic ladder to a great degree are deliberately put there. Further, the good jobs are NEVER UP FOR GRABS...it is who you know, or who you or your family has done a favor for...no better example of that exists right now than Meagan McCain...well, that and a few of Obama's LONG TIME FRIENDS.

James said...

poverty is color blind

Not entirely, Royce. Sure, many of the problems of poverty in this country are about class, not race.

There are also distinctive problems within black communities. This is what's meant when people argue that blacks are "whiners" (your term), or have a victim mentality, or don't value education, and so on.

To some extent, similar issues exist in poor white communities, but there are differences, too, which can be traced to our long history of mistreating blacks.

Poor blacks also know that much of their poverty stems from slavery and discrimination, and that they're much more likely to be poor because they're descended from slaves, and that they're less likely to have certain opportunities because of their race.

These are things we need to take into account as we fight poverty and other social ills.

you say slavery was systematic...what is minimum wage set by our Federal Government that leaves people in poverty

You don't see a difference between the federal government authorizing the enslavement of human beings, and the federal government not setting a minimum wage as high as you think best?

Any one, black, white or purple that thinks slavery is gone does not have a clue

Very true!

Obama wants to give ALL AMEIRCANS college, but ONLY AFTER WE HAVE GIVEN TWO YEARS of service to our country

Service in exchange for help in affording higher education? It might not be my choice, or yours, but it's hardly beyond the pale, unless you believe that society has an obligation to pay for college for all people and without any conditions.

Royce Penstinger said...

James...Higher Education, access to a good education at a center of higher learning (college) should be a right, not a priviledge. How many Americans are where they are today because or, or a lack of the right college pedigree? You want to LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD...then lets open the doors wide to Acadamie. I am 53...still do not have my Bachelor Degree...the money is not in the cards right now.

I see minimum wage, the COMPANY STORE in coal mining towns and slavery all in the same fetid bowl of swamp gas. To me, trying decide which is/was worse, or which should be dealt with first is stupid...it is like trying to decide degrees of abuse a survivor suffered through is worse...its all the same fucking thing.

James said...

I think this is a fascinating discussion, Royce.

Higher Education, access to a good education at a center of higher learning (college) should be a right, not a priviledge.

Wow. I don't hear that sort of talk often, Royce, from people who angrily reject the very idea of redressing the nation's legacy of slavery and racial discrimination.

I certainly hate the idea that anyone is kept from higher education because of cost. I'm not sure I'm willing to go so far as to say that our government ought to provide everyone with higher education at taxpayer expense, though. It seems to me that this raises a host of additional issues.

I see minimum wage ... and slavery all in the same fetid bowl of swamp gas.

Hmm. Chattel slavery involved a partnership of government and private individuals, stripping human beings of their families, language, religion, and culture. It involved forceable mating and other atrocities.

I can't quite compare this to your concern that the federal government ought to (1) require that all employers pay all of their workers a minimum amount, and (2) that this amount needs to be much higher than it is right now, and that (3) this amount is currently low enough to create conditions as bad as chattel slavery.

If nothing else, the plight of those in our country who are employed at the minimum wage is simply not as bad as it was for American slaves. Never mind that the responsibilities are distributed very differently.

Royce Penstinger said...

James:

Maybe you have never heard someone react this way because most people buy into being politically correct, have a belief or were taught that discretion is the better part of valor, tend too keep their thoughts to themselves because it's not worth the hassle/trouble or because they don't want to offend anybody.

Never been one of those people, never cared much if my thoughts offended someone...sometimes offending someone is JUST WHAT THEY NEEDED though too often they don't realize it at the time.

I can tell in various ways you just don't get it...example...when I was much younger and living in the Midwest the ticket out of poverty for many was a GOOD UNION JOB. You had job security, good benefits, paid vacation, pension and a GREAT HOURLY WAGE. I like a lot of us wanted to get on at International Harvester, wanted a job on the assembly line, if I were lucky, move up to Supervisor, get my college degrees going to a two year college nights and eventually work into management, were white shirts to work every day instead of factory clothes.

I applied for a job, was interviewed by a friend...he came right out and told me...sorry, would love to hire you but we have to bring up our percentage of minorities or we are in trouble with the Feds. I know first hand I paid a price for Affirmative Action, and on far more than ONE OCCASSION, and for what and why? How did I get to draw the short straw...by the way, there are a lot of I's that were in the same boat as me.

Because I was white? No offense, but the color of my skin didn't mean I was void of dreams, or in some fashion unqualified...I was just the wrong color at the wrong time in history. Instead of getting a job starting at $12 per hour and change I got to keep washing dishes at the job I had for $2.35 per hour. Do the math on a 40 hour work week.

Though sure you and others might not agree, or see it the way I do, but in some way I have my own legacy from Black Slavery...140 years after Lincoln freed the slaves some of us are the lucky ones (notice the sarcasism) that got to live at a lower standard than we might of all in the name of Affirmative Action, which was put into place to level the playing field because of that slavery all those generations ago...WANT TO TELL ME THAT IS FAIR, WANT TO TELL ME THAT SOME OF US HAVEN'T already PAID REPARATIONS...you want to disagree with that, want to see it from a different perspective, I am fine with that, but I know the life that I have lived, know that I and others have paid a price for the gains that Blacks and other minorities have made because of Affirmative Action...do they deserve what they got...I think so. Was it fair that I and others like me had to pay the price for their GAINS. FUCKING NO, and to be quite frank with you, after 35 years of paying that price, listening to them grouse, it has GOTTEN OLD and I am starting to get just a little bit pissed.

James said...

Maybe you have never heard someone react this way because ....

No, it's none of those things. It's not that I've never heard these views before.

It's the combination of believing so strongly in using government money to end poverty for everyone, of all races, while adamantly arguing that reparations for past wrongs would be utterly bad.

would love to hire you but we have to bring up our percentage of minorities or we are in trouble with the Feds.

This is a common complaint that I've heard.

Yet the statistics are clear: even with affirmative action, blacks weren't being hired at anything close to the proper rates. Why? Well, discrimination in part, lack of education, and so on.

So who's losing out? On the whole, there are more whites getting these jobs than there should be, and fewer blacks than there should be. Blacks aren't advantaged here, and whites aren't losing out on anything they're entitled to.

Now, if you were qualified enough that you should have been one of the whites with that job, even if blacks were getting what they would have if race weren't a factor, then someone screwed up royally.

some of us are the lucky ones (notice the sarcasism) that got to live at a lower standard than we might of all in the name of Affirmative Action, which was put into place to level the playing field because of that slavery all those generations ago

Umm ... if the playing field still isn't level, and blacks still don't have all the jobs they're entitled to, then what's the problem? Aren't we talking about whites who wouldn't have those jobs, losing them to blacks who would have? If not, then we aren't talking about properly leveling the playing field; something needs adjusting.

I don't see how this is a case for eliminating efforts to remedy the un-level playing field.

WANT TO TELL ME THAT SOME OF US HAVEN'T already PAID REPARATIONS

You may have been treated unfairly, Royce. I didn't design affirmative action programs, and I didn't vote for them.

But how could that have been reparations, if blacks are still doing much worse than whites, and we can trace it right back to slavery?

I know the life that I have lived, know that I and others have paid a price for the gains that Blacks and other minorities have made

What gains, Royce? Do you think that blacks have climbed, in your lifetime, more than a tiny fraction of the way towards equality in jobs, housing, education, health care?

And how do you know this? Aside from employers who've claimed that they were rejecting you because of affirmative action?

I think you have a beef, but not with blacks, if I understand you right.

Royce Penstinger said...

Equal Rights...Not Special Rights.

Affirmative Action has created SPECIAL RIGHTS...I was plenty qualified for those jobs, but was not hired because they had to meet quota, had to bring in some minority workers. After numerous such instances I said to hell with it, went out and started my own company.

Reparations...basically, the giving of something of value in an effort to make ammends. What the hell do you think Affirmative Action was about...the program was created to give something of value to make amends, to level the playing field by giving minorities AN ADVANTAGE for awhile (NOT FOREVER). Affirmative Action was and is REPARATIONS. Problem is, the way the program was created and implemented meant that one group of us on the lower rungs of the economic ladder would have to pay the price for another group to climb up it...WTF...just a bit of something wrong there don't you think?

I want you or any one else to explain to me why it is fair that I or pick another I person should have to unfairly DO WITHOUT in an effort to make up for something we had NOTHING TO DO WITH...especially when we cannot afford to pay the price society wants us to pay. Should I have to live a less blessed life so that someone who was in my EXACT SAME SHOES can live a much richer life as a result of my society ordered sacrifices? Should that group that is recieving that benefit be allowed to whine so loud that our government refuse to end the program long after it served its purpose, those further inconveniencing even punishing a certain group of people (in this case lower and middle class white people).

I know of a situation...yes, I was a party to it...wherein minorities recieved a 10 point BONUS simply for being a minority on a pre employment test that would decide who was hired. I lost out on the job even though I had the highest UNALTERED SCORE, but when the Affirmative Action minority bonus was plugged into the equation...WHOOPS, I did not get hired.

As to your equal pay issue...if anyone is paid less than someone else for the same job, and they have the SAME QUALIFICATIONS, that is wrong. But if a person is lacking certain skill sets, is going to have to be trained, brought up to speed, they should be paid less, even if working under the same Job Title. Just because two people work in the same title or job, does not mean they both do the same QUALITY of work.

You keep wanting to act like we have to PUNISH one group by HOLDING THEM BACK until the other group has attained parity...sorry, but that is BULLSHIT. How many generations of people like me should have to suffer in your scheme to find perfect balance...it does not exist, and NEVER WILL.

Further, the TABLE IS LEVEL...more than level. Any singular person of color if they APPLY THEMSELVES and work hard has the same opportunity to succeed as any other person in the exact same life circumstances...Care to venture a bet...OBama's two girls who are CHILDREN OF PRIVILEDGE, will do just as well as WHITE CHILDREN OF PRIVILEDGE. Affirmative Action has been a good thing for the Black Community, for minorities in general, but they do not want that wagon to come into the station, do not want to give up something of GREAT VALUE that gives them if you will a head start. I am willing to cmpete with any one on a level field...asking me to spot someone ten points is NOT A LEVEL FIELD...there B becomes equal to my A all because of Affirmative Action...sorry, that is WRONG.

If I have better scores, better qualifications when applying to a certain college, should not I get in over those that have LOWER SCORES...guess what...in too many instances that does always happen because they are trying to meet the mix ratios, have a balanced student body, meet the quidelines and goals of Affirmative Action...by the way, why is it ALL RIGHT to have Black Colleges...I can hear the uproar now if a commercial were aired claiming a White Mind is a terrible thing to waste.

That's the problem...DOUBLE STANDARDS, and as long as those double standards are giving an advantage to the Black Community they are fine with it. I want an end to double standards, and Affirmative Action is a double standard, deliberately creates different tiers and classes of citizens.

I want an end to poverty for all people, not just Black people. I want Equal rights for ALL PEOPLE, not SPECIAL RIGHTS for SPECIAL PEOPLE THAT FIT INTO CERTAIN LITTLE BENEFICIAL MINORITY CUBICALS THAT GIVE THEM SPECIAL ACCESS AND RIGHTS not available to someone else because they are WHITE. I am all for LEVELING the playing field...which is why ALL Americans should have a college degree if they want one...or two, or three. Say what you want, but even with various grants and loans (if you can get them) college is still not affordable for too many Americans.

You think I have a beef, but not with Blacks...I say go sit down with a group of Blacks and watch them howl when you suggest doing away with Affirmative Action. What was originally intended to be a SHORT TERM program they now see as their ENTITLEMENT, THEIR BIRTHRIGHT as Black Citizens of AMerica.

James said...

What the hell do you think Affirmative Action was about...the program was created to give something of value to make amends

Affirmative action was intended to help ease ongoing discrimination, in effect bypassing the continuing reluctance of employers and others to choose black candidates.

It was never intended to comprehensively make up for what was done to blacks, and it surely didn't make a dent in the socioeconomic disadvantages faced by blacks. Simple numbers show this.

It was not designed to give minorities an advantage (and, in fact, we know that it hasn't), but to level the playing field in industries where blacks were simply not accepted in equal numbers.

Problem is, the way the program was created and implemented meant that one group of us on the lower rungs of the economic ladder would have to pay the price for another group to climb up it

How so? Let's say that a company would, absent discrimination, have 12% black employees. Then a program to ensure that they hire that many employees doesn't disadvantage any whites, except whites who wouldn't have been hired otherwise.

something we had NOTHING TO DO WITH

It's not about whether you or I had anything to do with slavery or discrimination.

It's about the fact that whites in this society, as a whole, are substantially advantaged relative to blacks, as a result of that history.

How, again, are you being harmed? If you should have been hired by a company, absent discrimination, then affirmative action doesn't mandate that you not be hired now.

Should I have to live a less blessed life so that someone who was in my EXACT SAME SHOES can live a much richer life as a result of my society ordered sacrifices?

You think that a black person in your shoes has a life as easy as you? You think that racial discrimination isn't a price to pay?

Plus, again, we're talking about ensuring that companies hire roughly the right proportion of employees, without regard to race. We're not making anyone rich, and we're not talking about depriving anyone of what they're entitled to.

the TABLE IS LEVEL...more than level.

How do you figure? Because blacks are, on average, still greatly behind whites, and we can trace that directly from slavery to today.

We also know that considerable further discrimination happens today, in hiring, promotions, housing, and so on.

why is it ALL RIGHT to have Black Colleges

These are historically black colleges, Royce. They aren't limited to black students.

In the past, they were intended specifically for black students, because most colleges and universities excluded blacks. This was a noble endeavor, and today they're open to anyone.

I want an end to double standards

So do I, as long as that doesn't mean shutting our eyes to the ways in which blacks suffer the disadvantages of the past. If we simply treat everyone equally, without considering their starting points, we're just perpetuating the harm done by our society in generations gone by.

Royce Penstinger said...

JAmes'''we are NEVER going to see eye to eye on this.

You see, no one is looking out for what we as a nation have done to rural folks, or to folks in say Kentucky, Ohio and West Virginia where massive coal operations were taking place in all but slave communities, employees working for all but nothing, their health being ruined, their supposed pay used to pay rent in copany housing, shopping in the company store...

We do not see them seeking reparations.

James said...

I think you're right, Royce, that we just aren't going to see eye-to-eye.

You speak about very important issues, but you seem unwilling to believe that I care about them. And I have trouble believing that you take the experience of American slaves seriously enough, when you compare it so casually to other institutions like this, or that you take racial injustices seriously enough, when you don't even want to talk about them except in a context where the burdens of race won't even be considered as part of the problem.

Larry19611961 said...

My Great,Great Grandfather lost use of one of his legs fighting for the union army during the civil war. Who will pay me reparations ?

Royce Penstinger said...

James:

My feelings on the subject...we all have burdens to bear in life. That is what life is all about. Having grown up for a part of my life in abject poverty, not willing to buy into the theory that Blacks are entitled too reparations today for burdens that people carried 140 years ago.

Legacy of slavery to me is no different than the legacy of poverty (generational) and not willing to pay out blood money to people seven generations removed.

Larry19611961 said...

For Christ's sake. I have to pay for a stimulus to aid illegal aliens, increased taxes for a home that is worth less than I paid for it, a woman who had 14 kids in California,now I'm going to pay reparations for slavery ? My family were all in the northern army in the war between the states which later became the war to end slavery. We owned no slaves. Every legal citizen in this country has a good chance to move up the economic ladder on their own merits. In many cases minorities have distinct advantages. If not happy here, get the hell out..I would be happy to pay reparations in the form of a trust to purchase tickets to send the malcontents back to what ever country they originated from...Bon Voyage...

James said...

My feelings on the subject...we all have burdens to bear in life. That is what life is all about.

I can certainly respect that, Royce.

As you know, I think it's important to be able to at least acknowledge where these burdens come from.

And I do think it matters whether it's simply a question of "life is hard," or whether our society committed what, today, we would consider atrocities requiring a response. I realize you may feel, for instance, that a society not having a higher minimum wage or a guarantee of college education for all falls into a similar category, and I respect that, too.

not willing to pay out blood money to people seven generations removed.

Well, no one wants to do that. If you don't believe that blacks carry a burden today because of slavery, then I can certainly see why you wouldn't support reparations. It's up to reparations supporters to help you see why, in fact, the lives of black Americans are still dramatically affected by slavery and Jim Crow discrimination.

James said...

My family were all in the northern army in the war between the states which later became the war to end slavery. We owned no slaves.

Larry, the Civil War wasn't fought to end slavery, and your ancestors didn't fight to end slavery. You imply as much, I think, by noting it only became a war to end slavery shortly before it ended.

As for owning no slaves ... do you really know this, or are you just guessing? Slaves in the North were 10% of the population at the peak, and were commonly owned by ordinary farmers, shopkeepers, ministers, and the like.

More importantly, those in the antebellum North were in an economy driven mostly by slavery. They weren't unconnected from slavery at all.

Every legal citizen in this country has a good chance to move up the economic ladder on their own merits.

Sure, Larry, but their chances will be dramatically affected by what their family has. Most people don't end up much different from where their parents or grandparents were.

Many blacks are tired of hearing that opportunities are the same, when whites on average have far more, because of how blacks were treated in the past, and that continues with each generation.

In many cases minorities have distinct advantages.

Riiiiiiiight.

Royce Penstinger said...

James:

YOUR OWN WORDS...Sure, Larry, but their chances will be dramatically affected by what their family has. Most people don't end up much different from where their parents or grandparents were

I OPPOSE REPARATIONS, but have stated I want to end poverty. YOu in some ways just made my point. Reparations will SOLVE NOTHING, but will cause more resentements.

Now, you END POVERTY for everyone, regardless of say the color of their skin, and opportunity access becomes a mute point. You see, it was/is not slavery that is the issue, but wealth or lack there of, and that affects people of all colors.

A poor white person will have the same lack of opportunity that a black person living at or below poverty will have.

James said...

Reparations will SOLVE NOTHING, but will cause more resentements.

I'm trying to understand your point here, Royce, but I think I'm missing something.

Most people end up not far from where their parents were, in socioeconomic terms, because having advantages growing up is critical, and disadvantages likewise.

This doesn't mean that this cycle can't be broken, whether it's for the descendants of slaves or for people trapped in poverty generally. This doesn't mean that reparations wouldn't "work," any more than it means we shouldn't try to do something about poverty overall.

you END POVERTY for everyone, regardless of say the color of their skin, and opportunity access becomes a mute point.

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not sure how we get there, or that it's at all possible, however.

it was/is not slavery that is the issue, but wealth or lack there of, and that affects people of all colors

This doesn't follow at all, Royce.

It's true that wealth or lack thereof affects people of all races. But it's also true that our nation's history of slavery and discrimination has a great deal to do with the poverty or other disadvantages experienced by many blacks.

Just as importantly, it's true that blacks are disproportionately poor or disadvantaged, because of that legacy. That's something that not everyone is comfortable simply setting aside, or trusting will eventually be resolved as part of a general solution to poverty.

A poor white person will have the same lack of opportunity that a black person living at or below poverty will have.

Obviously untrue, Royce.

We know that black Americans face discrimination quite frequently. Do you deny this? Do you think it's unimportant?

Royce Penstinger said...

Curious there James...where is personal responsibility? Thin kBill Cosby. For almost two generations, Blacks have been given SPECIAL RIGHTS through Affirmative Action, and some blacks have used those SPECIAL RIGHTS to their best personal advantage...see both Michele and Barack Obama. I do not fault them for the hand up they got, but where WAS MY HAND UP? Further, how many others that had that chance of an EXTRA HAND UP did not avail themselves of it...SHAME ON THEM.

Enough is enough, lets stop giving one group a hand up if that hand up is not available TO ALL PEOPLE. The time to give advantage based on color needs to end...as example, it is estimated that by 2050 White's will be the NEW MINORITY...now if I am correct, that would mean in 2050 the law would see all those Affirmative Rights swing over to US in a Us verse Them scenerio....tell me James, do you think the Black Community would stand for that reality?

Lets do away with Affirmative Action, and instead put in a program that rewards those, lends a hand to those of us who are on the lowest Economic Rungs of American Society.

James said...

Curious there James...where is personal responsibility? Thin kBill Cosby.

Personal responsibility is tremendously important, Royce. Bill Cosby is right about that.

However, let's not talk as if the plight of blacks in America is the result of a lack of personal responsibility. Even if you think such factors have played a role--or must inevitably play a role in the solution--the primary cause of black/white racial inequality in this country is demonstrably our history of slavery and Jim Crow discrimination.

For almost two generations, Blacks have been given SPECIAL RIGHTS through Affirmative Action

You say that, and yet affirmative action has mostly benefited other people (including whites). Nor could affirmative action possibly have undone all the generations of damage by itself.

I do not fault them for the hand up they got, but where WAS MY HAND UP?

Just how much of a hand up do you think these two superstars received?

Barack Obama, for instance, was one of the top students at the top law school in the country. Do you believe he was admitted because he was black? If so, wasn't that a success, since he turned out to be better in law school than almost any of his white peers?

The time to give advantage based on color needs to end

I'd be interested to know why you think now is the time. After all, we've hardly made a dent in the problem.

if I am correct, that would mean in 2050 the law would see all those Affirmative Rights swing over to US in a Us verse Them scenerio

You seem to think that racial inequality is about minority status. It isn't.

By 2050, do you think that whites will have been dumped out of slavery with nothing? Brutally discriminated against for another century? I didn't think so.

James said...

Lets do away with Affirmative Action, and instead put in a program that rewards those, lends a hand to those of us who are on the lowest Economic Rungs of American Society.

I have no problem with that, Royce, at least if it can actually be done, and done fairly.

Larry19611961 said...

I am also tired of hearing the crap about the (1st Black President)He's half white..The media treats it these days as if being black were a prized asset. I imagine many like myself are tired of hearing that crap..You want to talk about unfair ? The so called (Hate Crime) laws are directed soley at white people ! When blacks attack whites the media is oh so careful not to mention the color of the attacker..But let the reverse happen. They play up racism and hate crime for weeks sometimes months in the media. Black people can not be racist,heavan forbid..That clown mayor in Louisiana says we must keep ours a (Chocolate city). If a white person said that he would be shunned from society...Double standard ? And I know for a fact my family had no slaves..One side were dirt farmers and the other side came on the Maylower as endentured servents..Yes Slaves !!! I have been beaten severly twice by blacks,once for trying to help a young girl who was being molested by 8 of them. They left me for dead..My sister has dated blacks for some 30 years and has been continually beaten and stolen from all that time. Yet I have black friends. Years ago I never thought of them as black friends,Just friends..Apparently you people don't understand the rift you are creating between the races by the constant BOO HOOING and the cries of racism for every slight or perceived insult.I can get along with any decent,hard working human being. If you have this much time on your hands why not do something decent like raise money for hungry children...Larry

Larry19611961 said...

And if you read my comment carefully (JAMES) you will see I said (Which later became a war to end slavery)Which makes me suspect you are less interested in other peoples opinions..Do you have an empty can to collect coins for the needy ?

James said...

I know for a fact my family had no slaves..One side were dirt farmers and the other side came on the Maylower as endentured servents.

No offense, Larry, but dirt farmers had slaves, too. It was quite common. So did the descendants of indentured servants in earlier generations.

Yet I have black friends.

I would certainly hope so, Larry.

Apparently you people don't understand the rift you are creating between the races by the constant BOO HOOING and the cries of racism for every slight or perceived insult.

I couldn't agree more, Larry. That sort of thing is counter-productive.

Who are "you people," though?

if you read my comment carefully (JAMES) you will see I said (Which later became a war to end slavery)

If you will read MY comment carefully, Larry, you'll see that I specifically acknowledged that you'd said that. I simply added that this meant the war wasn't fought to end slavery, and your ancestors weren't fighting for that goal.

So why did you even mention that those ancestors fought in the Civil War on the Union side? You don't explain, you only add that they owned no slaves. (And, of course, fighting for the Union had nothing to do with owning, or not owning, slaves, so those are separate issues.)

Larry19611961 said...

Do you need a can to collect coins ?

James said...

Do you need a can to collect coins ?

What does that mean, Larry?

Royce Penstinger said...

James...think Larry was offering you a can to collect up some donations for Reparations.

Anonymous said...

No...If he indeed read my posts he would learn I suggested he cease the Boo HOOing and do something worthwhile like collect money for hungry children..

Larry19611961 said...

Heres something for James..Try to digest this...........................A Closer Look at Slavery, White Guilt Politics and Real History
Posted under: General— @ 12:30 am

Dixie’s Censored Subject

Black Slave Owners

By Robert M. Grooms

In an 1856 letter to his wife Mary Custis Lee, Robert E. Lee called slavery “a moral and political evil.” Yet he concluded that black slaves were immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially and physically.

The fact is large numbers of free Negroes owned black slaves; in fact, in numbers disproportionate to their representation in society at large. In 1860 only a small minority of whites owned slaves. According to the U.S. census report for that last year before the Civil War, there were nearly 27 million whites in the country. Some eight million of them lived in the slaveholding states.

The census also determined that there were fewer than 385,000 individuals who owned slaves (1). Even if all slaveholders had been white, that would amount to only 1.4 percent of whites in the country (or 4.8 percent of southern whites owning one or more slaves).

In the rare instances when the ownership of slaves by free Negroes is acknowledged in the history books, justification centers on the claim that black slave masters were simply individuals who purchased the freedom of a spouse or child from a white slaveholder and had been unable to legally manumit them. Although this did indeed happen at times, it is a misrepresentation of the majority of instances, one which is debunked by records of the period on blacks who owned slaves. These include individuals such as Justus Angel and Mistress L. Horry, of Colleton District, South Carolina, who each owned 84 slaves in 1830. In fact, in 1830 a fourth of the free Negro slave masters in South Carolina owned 10 or more slaves; eight owning 30 or more (2).

According to federal census reports, on June 1, 1860 there were nearly 4.5 million Negroes in the United States, with fewer than four million of them living in the southern slaveholding states. Of the blacks residing in the South, 261,988 were not slaves. Of this number, 10,689 lived in New Orleans. The country’s leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city.

To return to the census figures quoted above, this 28 percent is certainly impressive when compared to less than 1.4 percent of all American whites and less than 4.8 percent of southern whites. The statistics show that, when free, blacks disproportionately became slave masters.

The majority of slaveholders, white and black, owned only one to five slaves. More often than not, and contrary to a century and a half of bullwhips-on-tortured-backs propaganda, black and white masters worked and ate alongside their charges; be it in house, field or workshop. The few individuals who owned 50 or more slaves were confined to the top one percent, and have been defined as slave magnates.

In 1860 there were at least six Negroes in Louisiana who owned 65 or more slaves The largest number, 152 slaves, were owned by the widow C. Richards and her son P.C. Richards, who owned a large sugar cane plantation. Another Negro slave magnate in Louisiana, with over 100 slaves, was Antoine Dubuclet, a sugar planter whose estate was valued at (in 1860 dollars) $264,000 (3). That year, the mean wealth of southern white men was $3,978 (4).

In Charleston, South Carolina in 1860 125 free Negroes owned slaves; six of them owning 10 or more. Of the $1.5 million in taxable property owned by free Negroes in Charleston, more than $300,000 represented slave holdings (5). In North Carolina 69 free Negroes were slave owners (6).

In 1860 William Ellison was South Carolina’s largest Negro slaveowner. In Black Masters. A Free Family of Color in the Old South, authors Michael P. Johnson and James L. Roak write a sympathetic account of Ellison’s life. From Ellison’s birth as a slave to his death at 71, the authors attempt to provide justification, based on their own speculation, as to why a former slave would become a magnate slave master.

At birth he was given the name April. A common practice among slaves of the period was to name a child after the day or month of his or her birth. Between 1800 and 1802 April was purchased by a white slave-owner named William Ellison. Apprenticed at 12, he was taught the trades of carpentry, blacksmithing and machining, as well as how to read, write, cipher and do basic bookkeeping.

On June 8, 1816, William Ellison appeared before a magistrate (with five local freeholders as supporting witnesses) to gain permission to free April, now 26 years of age. In 1800 the South Carolina legislature had set out in detail the procedures for manumission. To end the practice of freeing unruly slaves of “bad or depraved” character and those who “from age or infirmity” were incapacitated, the state required that an owner testify under oath to the good character of the slave he sought to free. Also required was evidence of the slave’s “ability to gain a livelihood in an honest way.”

Although lawmakers of the time could not envision the incredibly vast public welfare structures of a later age, these stipulations became law in order to prevent slaveholders from freeing individuals who would become a burden on the general public.

Interestingly, considering today’s accounts of life under slavery, authors Johnson and Roak report instances where free Negroes petitioned to be allowed to become slaves; this because they were unable to support themselves.

Black Confederates and Afro-Yankees in Civil War Virginia (University Press of Virginia-1995) was written by Ervin L. Jordan Jr., an African-American and assistant professor and associate curator of the Special Collections Department, University of Virginia library. He wrote: “One of the more curious aspects of the free black existence in Virginia was their ownership of slaves. Black slave masters owned members of their family and freed them in their wills. Free blacks were encouraged to sell themselves into slavery and had the right to choose their owner through a lengthy court procedure.”

In 1816, shortly after his manumission, April moved to Stateburg. Initially he hired slave workers from local owners. When in 1817 he built a gin for Judge Thomas Watries, he credited the judge nine dollars “for hire of carpenter George for 12 days.” By 1820 he had purchased two adult males to work in his shop (7). In fewer than four years after being freed, April demonstrated that he had no problem perpetuating an institution he had been released from. He also achieved greater monetary success than most white people of the period.

On June 20, 1820, April appeared in the Sumter District courthouse in Sumterville. Described in court papers submitted by his attorney as a “freed yellow man of about 29 years of age,” he requested a name change because it “would yet greatly advance his interest as a tradesman.” A new name would also “save him and his children from degradation and contempt which the minds of some do and will attach to the name April.” Because “of the kindness” of his former master and as a “Mark of gratitude and respect for him” April asked that his name be changed to William Ellison. His request was granted.

In time the black Ellison family joined the predominantly white Episcopalian church. On August 6, 1824 he was allowed to put a family bench on the first floor, among those of the wealthy white families. Other blacks, free and slave, and poor whites sat in the balcony. Another wealthy Negro family would later join the first floor worshippers.

Between 1822 and the mid-1840s, Ellison gradually built a small empire, acquiring slaves in increasing numbers. He became one of South Carolina’s major cotton gin manufacturers, selling his machines as far away as Mississippi. From February 1817 until the War Between the States commenced, his business advertisements appeared regularly in newspapers across the state. These included the Camden Gazette, the Sumter Southern Whig and the Black River Watchman.

Ellison was so successful, due to his utilization of cheap slave labor, that many white competitors went out of business. Such situations discredit impressions that whites dealt only with other whites. Where money was involved, it was apparent that neither Ellison’s race or former status were considerations.

In his book, Ervin L. Jordan Jr. writes that, as the great conflagration of 1861-1865 approached: “Free Afro-Virginians were a nascent black middle class under siege, but several acquired property before and during the war. Approximately 169 free blacks owned 145,976 acres in the counties of Amelia, Amherst, Isle of Wight, Nansemond, Prince William and Surry, averaging 870 acres each. Twenty-rune Petersburg blacks each owned property worth $1,000 and continued to purchase more despite the war.”

Jordan offers an example: “Gilbert Hunt, a Richmond ex-slave blacksmith, owned two slaves, a house valued at $1,376, and $500 in other properties at his death in 1863.” Jordan wrote that “some free black residents of Hampton and Norfolk owned property of considerable value; 17 black Hamptonians possessed property worth a total of $15,000. Thirty-six black men paid taxes as heads of families in Elizabeth City County and were employed as blacksmiths, bricklayers, fishermen, oystermen and day laborers. In three Norfolk County parishes 160 blacks owned a total of $41,158 in real estate and personal property.

The general practice of the period was that plantation owners would buy seed and equip~ ment on credit and settle their outstanding accounts when the annual cotton crop was sold. Ellison, like all free Negroes, could resort to the courts for enforcement of the terms of contract agreements. Several times Ellison successfully sued white men for money owed him.

In 1838 Ellison purchased on time 54.5 acres adjoining his original acreage from one Stephen D. Miller. He moved into a large home on the property. What made the acquisition notable was that Miller had served in the South Carolina legislature, both in the U.S. House of Representatives and the Senate, and while a resident of Stateburg had been governor of the state. Ellison’s next door neighbor was Dr. W.W. Anderson, master of “Borough House, a magnificent 18th Century mansion. Anderson’s son would win fame in the War Between the States as General “Fighting Dick” Anderson.

By 1847 Ellison owned over 350 acres, and more than 900 by 1860. He raised mostly cotton, with a small acreage set aside for cultivating foodstuffs to feed his family and slaves. In 1840 he owned 30 slaves, and by 1860 he owned 63. His sons, who lived in homes on the property, owned an additional nine slaves. They were trained as gin makers by their father (8). They had spent time in Canada, where many wealthy American Negroes of the period sent their children for advanced formal education. Ellison’s sons and daughters married mulattos from Charleston, bringing them to the Ellison plantation to live.

In 1860 Ellison greatly underestimated his worth to tax assessors at $65,000. Even using this falsely stated figure, this man who had been a slave 44 years earlier had achieved great financial success. His wealth outdistanced 90 percent of his white neighbors in Sumter District. In the entire state, only five percent owned as much real estate as Ellison. His wealth was 15 times greater than that of the state’s average for whites. And Ellison owned more slaves than 99 percent of the South’s slaveholders.

Although a successful businessman and cotton farmer, Ellison’s major source of income derived from being a “slave breeder.” Slave breeding was looked upon with disgust throughout the South, and the laws of most southern states forbade the sale of slaves under the age of 12. In several states it was illegal to sell inherited slaves (9). Nevertheless, in 1840 Ellison secretly began slave breeding.

While there was subsequent investment return in raising and keeping young males, females were not productive workers in his factory or his cotton fields. As a result, except for a few females he raised to become “breeders,” Ellison sold the female and many of the male children born to his female slaves at an average price of $400. Ellison had a reputation as a harsh master. His slaves were said to be the district’s worst fed and clothed. On his property was located a small, windowless building where he would chain his problem slaves.

As with the slaves of his white counterparts, occasionally Ellison’s slaves ran away. The historians of Sumter District reported that from time to time Ellison advertised for the return of his runaways. On at least one occasion Ellison hired the services of a slave catcher. According to an account by Robert N. Andrews, a white man who had purchased a small hotel in Stateburg in the 1820s, Ellison hired him to run down “a valuable slave. Andrews caught the slave in Belleville, Virginia. He stated: “I was paid on returning home $77.50 and $74 for expenses.

William Ellison died December 5, 1861. His will stated that his estate should pass into the joint hands of his free daughter and his two surviving sons. He bequeathed $500 to the slave daughter he had sold.

Following in their father’s footsteps, the Ellison family actively supported the Confederacy throughout the war. They converted nearly their entire plantation to the production of corn, fodder, bacon, corn shucks and cotton for the Confederate armies. They paid $5,000 in taxes during the war. They also invested more than $9,000 in Confederate bonds, treasury notes and certificates in addition to the Confederate currency they held. At the end, all this valuable paper became worthless.

The younger Ellisons contributed more than farm produce, labor and money to the Confederate cause. On March 27, 1863 John Wilson Buckner, William Ellison’s oldest grandson, enlisted in the 1st South Carolina Artillery. Buckner served in the company of Captains P.P. Galliard and A.H. Boykin, local white men who knew that Buckner was a Negro. Although it was illegal at the time for a Negro to formally join the Confederate forces, the Ellison family’s prestige nullified the law in the minds of Buckner’s comrades. Buckner was wounded in action on July 12, 1863. At his funeral in Stateburg in August, 1895 he was praised by his former Confederate officers as being a “faithful soldier.”

Following the war the Ellison family fortune quickly dwindled. But many former Negro slave magnates quickly took advantage of circumstances and benefited by virtue of their race. For example Antoine Dubuclet, the previously mentioned New Orleans plantation owner who held more than 100 slaves, became Louisiana state treasurer during Reconstruction, a post he held from 1868 to 1877 (10).

A truer picture of the Old South, one never presented by the nation’s mind molders, emerges from this account. The American South had been undergoing structural evolutionary changes far, far greater than generations of Americans have been led to believe. In time, within a relatively short time, the obsolete and economically nonviable institution of slavery would have disappeared. The nation would have been spared awesome traumas from which it would never fully recover.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTES

1. The American Negro: Old World Background and New World Experience, Raymond Logan and Irving Cohen New York: Houghton and Mifflin, 1970), p.72.

2. Black Masters: A Free Family of Color in the Old South, Michael P. Johnson and James L. Roak New York: Norton, 1984), p.64.

3. The Forgotten People: Cane River’s Creoles of Color, Gary Mills (Baton Rouge, 1977); Black Masters, p.128.

4. Male inheritance expectations in the United States in 1870, 1850-1870, Lee Soltow (New Haven, 1975), p.85.

5. Black Masters, Appendix, Table 7; p.280.

6. Black Masters, p. 62.

7. Information on the Ellison family was obtained from Black Masters; the number of slaves they owned was gained from U.S. Census Reports.

8. In 1860 South Carolina had only 21 gin makers; Ellison, his three sons and a grandson account for five of the total.

9. Neither Black Nor White: Slavery and Race Relations in Brazil and the United States, Carl N. Degler (New York, Macmillan, 1971), p.39;
Negro Slavery in Louisiana, Joe Gray Taylor (Baton Rouge, 1963), pp. 4041.

10. Reconstruction: America’s Unfinished Revolution, 1863-1877, Eric Foner (New York; Harper & Row, 1988), p. 47; pp. 353-355.


Article Source: AmericanCivilWar.com / BarnesReview.org

James said...

think Larry was offering you a can to collect up some donations for Reparations.

Thanks, Royce. It's funny how anyone who even acknowledges the basic historical facts underpinning the reparations movement is automatically labeled a supporter of reparations. Even in jest.

I suggested he cease the Boo HOOing and do something worthwhile like collect money for hungry children..

Which is, frankly, a bizarre comment.

What do you know about my life's work? What makes you think that's not exactly what I do with my time? Aside from spending some free time on the Internet which, of course, all of us here do.

And how is this connected to what we're talking about? Surely an appreciation of our history and its consequences isn't incompatible with doing good work?

James said...

Heres something for James.

What a horribly misleading essay.

In 1860 only a small minority of whites owned slaves.

True. Of course, that was by 1860; earlier, vast numbers of middle-class people, north and south, owned slaves.

More importantly, in 1860 slavery dominated the economy and livelihoods of both the northern and the southern populations.

The majority of slaveholders, white and black, owned only one to five slaves.

This is quite true. Most slave owners, as he says, were of modest means and owned only one, or else a very small number, of slaves.

these stipulations became law in order to prevent slaveholders from freeing individuals who would become a burden on the general public.

Of course not. While that sounds like a reasonable idea, if this individual were any sort of genuine historian, he would know that the primary source materials show that the reason for laws like these was to minimize the number of slaves who were freed at all.

In time, within a relatively short time, the obsolete and economically nonviable institution of slavery would have disappeared.

This is patent nonsense, and it's telling that he doesn't attempt to provide any sort of explanation or justification.

The fact is that in 1860, the cotton trade had never been more profitable for the South. There was no alternative on the horizon, and no path was yet clear by which the South would want to shift away from large-scale plantation slavery as the basis of the southern economy.

The fact is large numbers of free Negroes owned black slaves

I find it deeply disturbing that this individual needs to spend so much time reviewing well-known history about free blacks owning slaves, and to do so in a way that makes clear his purpose is to somehow make slavery not quite so bad.

Only someone who is profoundly racialized in his thinking would believe it is particularly interesting that blacks, too, were willing to engage in slavery.

After all, black Africans were essential to the slave trade. They, and not white, enslaved every African sold and brought across the ocean. Slavery was not fundamentally about whites and blacks, but rather only incidentally so. Nor are whites are somehow the villains (or the saints) in our history.

Larry19611961 said...

"UN, Reparations ARE NOT AN OPTION...GET OVER IT"